MAN CITY INFO VIA THE ALPS #11

DATE Friday 14th October '94

We have more on the Forest game including something from the Forest List though no 'live' report unfortunately. There is also a good article from Andy Longshaw on player's performances which is particularly useful for those of us who never get to see them play. Perhaps most important of all though, I want to gauge opinion concerning a World Wide Web home page. People keep asking me about it and now that we have reached critical mass (circa 40) I thought I'd see if there are people out there who want to cooperate in putting one together. This does not have to be technical in nature; one of the more obvious areas where people can help is with files e.g. player profiles, statistics etc.

This mailing is going out to 42 people.

Let's try and get a point away tomorrow lads, please!

COMMENTS ON THE FOREST GAME

Regarding Martin's match report of the Forest game:

> City certainly came out of the second half with more spirit and fight
> and justifiably(?) took the lead. Again it was Quinn who managed to
> force home the ball in a goalmouth melee after Crossley had managed
> to only flap at the ball (although he claimed a foul). So was this
> going to be the start of something good, we only had a minute to wait
> before Collymore shattered our illusions and brought us down to
> earth.

Is my short-term memory playing tricks on me? I could have sworn we came from behind twice before Steve Lomas scored the third goal, which took us into the lead for the first time???

> A long clearance upfield fell awkwardly to Brightwell and he
> only managed to head the ball sideways, Collymore was on the ball in a
> flash and to be truthful I thought he was going nowhere. How wrong
> can you be, although heading away from goal he unleashed a fearsome
> shot and the ball flew inside the near post. Good shot as it was
> Dibble was surely at fault for getting beaten at the nearpost!

Although I could understand people blaming Dibble for all three goals, this is the only one where I thought he was really at fault. As Bob Wilson is often reminded, no goalkeeper should ever allow himself to be beaten at the near post. The deflection for the first goal could have happened to anybody - Dibble was scrambling back across the goal after guarding against a near post effort from Stone, who chose to play a low cross to the very impressive Collymore instead. As for the third goal, I'm surprised Dibble was even on his feet after the crack on the head he got. From where I was (in the North Stand), the ball seemed to be in the air for ages and looked to have gone well over the bar. I was distraught when the Forest fans at the Platt Lane end of the Kippax started celebrating.

> Thankfully for City Roy was away on
> international duty or else City would have IMHO got hammered.

I'm not sure Roy would have made that much difference. I felt City were always fairly comfortable until the last 15 minutes, after taking the lead. How many times have we seen City sit back and fail to hold onto a lead? The points were there for the taking and I don't think one player would have changed this situation into a hammering at home.

> I would
> still question Crossley as their number one goalie, he made a couple
> of errors and made a couple of easy saves look difficult (understand?)

As with Dibble, I'd say only the second goal was down to Crossley. He made a brilliant save in the first half from a Walsh(?) header which was powerfully heading right for the top corner. I remember thinking at the time that we might be in for one of those goalkeeping shows like Bryan Gunn put on at Maine Road last season. Thankfully it wasn't to be.

> But other than that they look a fair team. Which is more than can be
> said for City, the defence again looked very suspect and the sooner
> Curle's back the better, but don't rush him back, City need a fully
> fit Curle rather than one who'll only play a couple of games.

Hear, hear. With Curle missing there's a definite lack of pace in the centre of defence; against Barnet, Phelan was able to do a lot of the sweeping-up that Curle usually does. Against better opposition (no discredit to Barnet, who played well), this is not adequate. Get well soon Keith.

> The midfield again looked fairly solid but took time to get into the
> swing of the game. The attack is still banging the goals in, which
> helps the defence. Let's just hope they keep scoring. What City need is
> players with more commitment like Walsh. He'swilling to run his socks off
> and chase lost causes.

The same can be said of Uwe. I just wish referees would stop booking him for next to nothing.

> City and Leeds are prepared to swap Quinn and Speed, but once again
> that's all press talk, I wonder if it'll come off.

I hope not. Two of my best mates are season ticket holders at Leeds and they tell me that Speed has had a very poor last 18 months. Although Niall still has no pace, he's playing as well now as he's ever done.

PLAYER REPORT

MANCHESTER CITY vs NOTTINGHAM FOREST 8th October 1994

Andy Dibble

Oh dear. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. Where should one start? A performance of this standard could well condemn Andy to a looooooooong stint in the reserves if not out on loan. What is it about Forest that turns a good goalkeeper into something out of the Keystone Cops (reference - that goal where the Forest player headed the ball out of of his outstretched palm and kicked it into the net a few years ago)? As far as I could see (aided by MotD highlights), poor Andy was at fault for all 3 goals - deflecting a wide shot into his own net (does it count as an own goal?), being beaten at the near post (goalkeeping cardinal sin) and finally a mad charge out to claim Pearce's freekick only to "claim" Niall instead.

His performance will be summed up for me by the scene in front of me as I sat in the Eggbox Stand just after Forest's third goal. Andy lay slumped on the goalline, half injured and half extremely embarassed, as Terry Phelan walked past him to collect the ball out of the back of the net. The look that Terry gave him as he walked past him was one of utter contempt and frustration which aptly summed up the general calls of "You're c**p Dibble" that echoed around the stand.

Richard Edghill

Good, tidy game. Covered well for other people at the back but wasn't too effective going forward. Good distribution.

Terry Phelan

OK game. A couple of the "steamin' Phelan" runs on the outside of Beagrie and the usual 110% effort. However, I was a little concerned about the fact that the opposition seemed to get round him several times due to him not covering the guy on the touchline (this happened in the lead-up to the first goal). He seemed to pull inside to help cover someone who already had a City player in front of him. Whether it was his responsibility to mark the guy on the touchline I don't know but it reflects badly on him when he's left trailing in someone's wake.

Andy Hill

A nice line in "hanging" chips onto Niall's head. An OK game but nothing too outstanding.

Ian Brightwell

Given the thankless task of marking Collymore he didn't do too badly except for a couple of times when Collymore turned him and also the weak header that lead to the second goal. I don't think that Ian is suited to centreback duties, tho' at least he had the speed and agility to match Collymore (Hill or Vonk might have been too static). Some excellent tackling.

Garry Flitcroft

Good presence in the middle of the field. Quite imperious when on the ball coupled with great tackling and good, simple passing. Looks like he's learning well from McMahon. Slight worries a couple of times when he seemed to leave the ball to someone else (or under-pass it - it was difficult to tell from row 10) and a Forest player strode onto it. Could do with more shots on goal but I suspect that his rôle was to play in front of the back 4 so maybe he was reluctant to get too far forward.

Steve Lomas

Probably the best game I've seen Steve play. He looks a lot more solid now than he used to. Cracking goal - and there's me thinking that he didn't have a "left foot" to speak of! Overall, very good game (maybe he was inspired by the fact that he was the subject of the giant poster in the programme).

Paul Walsh

Give me a team of 11 Paul Walshes and I'll be happy. His combination of skill, effort and determination is an example to all around him. Not only does he chase lost causes but he gets there and wins them! Great, mazy running at the Forest defence set up Niall with a chance he really should have done better with. Another cracking performance - prime material for player of the season.

Nicky Summerbee

The fact that UMBRO don't seem to supply a shirt small enough for Nicky gives him a waif-like appearance. This was enhanced when he ducked out of the first couple of 50-50's with Psycho (although who wouldn't??). However, he seemed to get infected with the Walsh enthusiasm virus and started challenging Psycho and taking him on round the outside. He seemed to get grittier as the game wore on and several times left 2 or 3 Forest players trailing by the touchline as he forced his way through challenges which were more akin to rugby tackles than football ones (it is no coincidence that Forest had about 5 players booked). Again. possibly the best game I've seen from him. Just needs a bit more confidence and work on the crossing and shooting.

Niall Quinn

A good, solid game (which is what you expect from a player of Niall's integrity). A good choice of captain and he led by example with his two goals. The first one was the sort of volley that, were it to be scored by Mark Hughes, would probably be in for goal-of-the-month on MotD ("Easy boy, you've done quite well at avoiding Rag-baiting so far, don't blow it now."). What impressed me was his ability to back off slightly further than usual and take the ball on his feet. Several times he followed this by turning his marker and I think that scared the s**t out of the Forest defence since they were probably taken in by the "Quinn can only use his head" myth (anyone who saw him flick the ball over Bruce in last year's derby knows otherwise). Also, his awareness of players around him and his accuracy of heading or chesting the ball down to them (as for Stevie Lomas' goal) was top class.

If the rumours about a swap deal with Leeds for Gary Speed are at all true then I think that Brian "Mr. Angry" Horton needs his head examining. Quinn seems to get better as time goes on and I think he makes a great combination with Walsh and Rösler and also the best possible target for Beagrie and Summerbee (OK, I'll get off my soapbox now).

Peter Beagrie

Another day, another rightback to be tormented. The usual Beagrie fare of skipping and dancing round the fullback, delivering good crosses, a couple of near misses with long range shots and frustrating the opposition into rash challenges (Yes, you Scott Gemill). B+ overall.

NOTTINGHAM FOREST REACTION

I sent Martin's match report to the Nottingham Forest List in the hope of getting a swap, unfortunately they didn't get a 'live' one from one of their own supporters so we'll have to make do with their views gleaned from the radio etc. Hopefully we'll get one out of them when we play them away.

Ian Copping (NFFC Mailing List)

OK, attached below is just about all the comment on the Man City game generated on the Forest list, not much I'm afraid, plus a correction that someone posted after I submitted your post to the list.

As for Mark 'Norman' Crossley (called Norman due to apparent similar appearance to Norman Whiteside - can't see it myself) many Forest fans aren't keen on him and consider him a liability. Such was the the anti-Crossley feeling from the terraces Frank Clark felt the need to sign Northern Ireland international Tommy Wright last Sept/Oct and he played 6 or 7 games before missing a couple through illness to his son. Since then Norman has been mostly between the sticks and has improved a lot, he's still not won the fans over fully, but now his mistakes only cost a goal every 3 or 4 games as opposed to one in each half :-) Not my favourite keeper by a long way. I'd much rather have Coton, best uncapped keeper in the country, and better than many with caps.

NFFC List Articles

For the benefit of anyone waiting to hear, Forest have just gained a 3-3 draw at Maine Road against Man City. Forest were twice in the lead and then went 3-2 behind before equalising in the 90th minute. 2 goals for Stan plus 1 for Ian Woan. No Brian Roy in the side (replaced by Gemmill) and Alfie in for Des Lyttle. From the sound of the commentary, Alfie had a pretty rough time with Beagrie; Crossley was possibly at fault for one of the goals and Collymore should have won a penalty when he was taken out by Dibble.

Overall verdict from the radio - a point won rather than one lost

Subject:  Man City Game
From:     Jonathin P Wakelin <J.Wakelin@uk.ac.sussex>
Date:     Sat, 8 Oct 1994 17:51:32 +0100 (BST)

Forest have just drawn 3-3 with Man City; it sounded on the Radio as though Forest had another bad game, with their defence being less solid than I would like (more like I had expected at the start of the season). They have conceded 5 goals in two games in the league (but have scored 6!). Still Forest have had two bad performances and gained 4pts. This means that they have maintained the ratio of 7pts out of every 9. This is a title winning ratio! They are now unbeaten in 21 games (19 in league) and showed good resillience in coming back from behind for only the second time (in league) this season (the first was against Man Utd where they were behind for only a couple of mins).

I was worried before this game having a feeling that Man C would be the sort of team to end Forest's run (unbeaten in 5 home games before this match) but thankfully they have survived. Roll on Wimbledon, who are a team who have struggled this season, lets hope we can win this match. By the way why do we always draw games whenever we have a chance of going top? We drew away to Southampton in similar circumstances.

Just my thoughts following the game,

WHAT DO YOU THINK...AUTOMATIC MAILING?

From the look of the above Forest mailings it appears to a layman like me that they have an automatic mailer setup for the list. It has already been suggested to me that this would be a possibility for MCIVTA if the workload became excessive. Basically, incoming mail is either automatically sent out to all subscribers as it arrives or it is collected together and then sent out on a specific date. IMHO the disadvantage of this system is that the mailing merely becomes a long list of letters and loses any personal touch which is given to it during collation. The simple act of arranging articles into categories already confers a style on it which somehow produces a more sympathetic and pleasant read. Of course the advantage would be that discussions could be held in 'realtime' as mailings would be dispatched to all as and when received. At present I am quite happy (and having fun!) doing MCIVTA. Let me know your feelings on this one.

WHAT DO YOU THINK...WORLD WIDE WEB HOME PAGE?

Since the list started I have been asked numerous times about a Manchester City WWW home page, mainly, "are there any plans for one?" The simple answer to this is that there are no plans to create one, as far as I know. For those of you without access to the Web, I should explain what a WWW homepage is:

With the right software and connections, usually readily available at academic institutions, users can 'surf' (Godawful jargon) the Internet and in particular, using a programme called Mosaic (here anyway) they can create connections to just about anywhere with WWW, Gopher, or FTP servers. The attraction of WWW servers is that they give a graphical output which Mosaic displays on your screen. Thus, in addition to the reams of written information which is normally available via say Gopher, WWW can transmit pictures as well as present the written stuff in an aesthetic way (colour!!!).

WWW Home Pages are wonderful to look at and IMO they act as a showcase for the clubs and their supporters. What you would normally find there are statistics, photos, results, what happened to?, songs, addresses etc. Thus, as a medium they are relatively static. The effort involved is predominantly in setting the thing up, once done it is a relatively simple matter to keep it up to date. I must stress that they are in no way a substitute for a mailing list and Drew Shearsmith the administrator of the Forest WWW concurs; the mailing list is for news, discussion, opinions etc.

Having said that, it would without doubt be great to have one, especially as the Rags have one as Andy Longshaw pointed out. For my part, running the list takes up all the time I can spare so I'll have to pass (chicken!). I would guess that the best place to set one up would be an academic institution though I may be wrong in assuming this to be the best option. Drew Shearsmith has kindly sent us a brief description of how he brought it all to fruition. If anyone can get his system adminstrator to agree (shouldn't really be a problem) or would be willing to help out with scanning photos, graphics or statistics etc then make yourself known. By the way, the Rags WWW is in Dallas!

From Drew Shearsmith

Well we didn't get permission from anybody to do the page, we just hassled our system administrator to give us the permissions on our Unix host to access the WWW bits and he didn't seem to object. There was no contact with the club prior to setting this up either.

Most of the pictures were scanned in from Programs and Fanzines (probably all highly illegal), but we are meeting the commercial manager on Mon 17th Oct at 9:30am to see if we can scrounge some pics, and any other stuff we can get, plus we'd like the clubs blessing in the same way that some fanzines have, since we see ourselves as a kind of electronic fanzine.

Other than that it was just a huge effort to type in all the stuff with the relevant HTML codes to make it look good. The only saving grace to this was that Ian Copping, being a lifelong fan, already had loads of info about players and managers etc etc gathered over the years from the mailing list to which we simply added the HTML codes.

Whilst doing this we also took the opportunity to provide all of the text and .GIF files via remote FTP to keep those who don't have WWW access happy.

The key really is not to duplicate info already provided by others, but to put in links to their stuff, for example the guy who does the Arsenal(cough) WWW page also regularly does the league table within that so we've put a link in. Also most others have got a fixture list for their team with links in it to all the other known Premier League WWW home pages so that we can read up on each other before we meet.

The best thing would be if a number of your chaps typed in text and sent it to whoever will administrate the WWW page, and that person could put in the HTML codes to make it all work, thereby sharing the hard work.

Also there is a mailing list for Premier League WWW administrators on which we discuss ideas about what to add. This is very new and has had little traffic so far, but prior to this we did get together electronically and mull over a few ideas. For example Ian and myself thought of the idea to put links to other clubs on the fixtures lists, and the others thought it a good idea and followed suit. The address is WWWfooty@nottingham.ac.uk. Please E-mail Ian.Copping@nottingham.ac.uk for details.

So there it is, it sounds more like graft and cooperation are the key things rather than technical knowhow. Andy Longshaw and Svenn Hannsen have already offered to help in providing GIFs and other files. There is already a potential 'home' on offer! Please mail me if you think you can help out as it has to be a joint effort, if it looks promising then someone can coordinate and I'll send all contributors addresses to that person as I guess a lot of discussion on content etc will also take place.

OPINIONS

And now for some controversy:

FROM MCIVTA 10:

> Now that United have drawn Newcastle in the next round of the CC Cup,
> I wonder if Fergie will again play the 'kids' or will he revert to
> the normal team?
>
> However because Ferguson fielded a weakened team, United face up to a
> 50k fine from the Football League, who according to their rules state
> that teams must play their strongest possible team.
> However instead of accepting the fine, United are now brandishing the
> big stick and are making noises that they might pull out of the
> competition altogether. Edwards is backing Ferguson and if the
> Football League continue to threaten fines then United are willing to
> pull-out of the competition. United want to concentrate on Europe and
> find the CC Cup an nuisance. That's not the only thing, Edwards
> claims to have full backing from all the Premier teams, so in other
> words the CC Cup could be devoid of any Premier teams next season!
> So after trying to destroy the football setup, the Premier league
> teams are trying to make sure they get everything there own way!
>
> Personally if I were in the Football League set-up, I'd throw any
> dissenting teams out and if that meant every Premier league team then
> so be it. United's antics and threats are only devaluing the Cup so
> why not punish them by throwing them out?

As far as I can see, the only people who lose out as a result of United playing their youngsters in this competition are the people who pay to see the game expecting to see United's first team. Since Ferguson publicly announced that he was going to do it, I don't think even those people have a valid argument. When you consider how many managers and chairmen complain about fixture congestion but then go on to organise tours abroad when they have a free Saturday, it's nice to see somebody putting their money where their mouth is, even if it is the Rags.

When Edwards claimed to have the backing of the other Premier League clubs, my understanding of that was that they agreed in principle that Ferguson could put out whatever side he chooses and they would support his right to do that. I don't think for a minute that there will be a mass boycott of the competition by Premier League clubs next season. Furthermore, I don't think that United are devaluing the competition by playing a weaker side. After all, there's still a place in Europe to fight for, which means that hardly anybody else will be likely to follow their example.

I've spoken to a lot of people on this subject, a great many of whom detest United (understandably), and until I read the two articles in MCIVTA 10 about it, I'd not come across anybody who thought United should be punished. What does everybody else think? Shall I get my flame-retardant clothing out?

BERGKAMP AND NORWEGIANS!

As for the Bergkamp rumours: I hope we stay away from him! I saw him yesterday in the 1-1 draw between Norway and Holland. The price tag on him seems completely ridiculous based on yesterday's game. He was completely outplayed by Norwegian central defender Henning Berg (Blackburn) who made an outstanding performance (something for the City defence?). I think Bergkamp touched the ball twice in the second half and was substituted with 20 minutes to go.

As far as the game is concerned: the draw was fair, although Norway "owned" the second half and could easily have won based on the number of chances. Holland was however the better team in the first half. Bryan Roy, too, was taken out of the match by Bjørnebye (Liverpool) - the "Norwegian Englishmen" (including Bohinen, Fjørtoft and Thorstvedt, playing his first match since the World Cup apart from Tottenham reserve matches) did very well.

And midfielders: Erik Mykland was man of the match and is for sale! (very cheap also). However, I reckon that most of you are tired of Norwegian midfielders after Ingebrigtsen.

NEWS

Did anyone (British residents) see Grandstand on the BBC last Saturday (8/10/94)? I only mention this because they featured an item about the money men who have gained control of various Premier clubs recently.

They interviewed Jack Walker (Rovers), Peter Johnson (Everton), David Moores (L'pool), Alan Sugar (Spurs) John Hall (Newcastle) and of course Franny Lee.

Before each interview they showed how much each man had put into the clubs and where the money came from. (some of the figures are/might be wrong)

Walker   50   Million     Steel
Johnson   8.8 Million??   Food Hampers
Moores    9   Million     Football Pools
Sugar     9.5 Million??   Computers
Hall     11   Million     Buildings

Now the suprising thing when it came to Franny (Paper products) was the question mark. It didn't actually say how much he had put in but gave a total of 9.5M for the consortium. So how much has each man (Lee, Barlow and ???????????, argh my mind's gone blank help me fill the missing name in) put in and how much of their personal fortunes have these sums eaten into?

All of them interviewed gave different reasons why they had come into football and how they would run the clubs. Now the only man to mention managing was Franny. Even though it was said with a smile on his face I wonder if he eventually plans to play some sort of managerial rôle in the team affairs? He's the only ex-player interviewed in the boardroom so he should at least know what he's talking about. Any thoughts?

NEWS

Here's the latest news (some from Wed 12th, MEN)

• Keith Curle managed to play 62 minutes in the reserves 3-0 victory over York City before being substituted as a precaution. He'll hopefully be fit enough to face QPR on Saturday. Let's just hope that this time the injury's had enough time to fully heal!
• Uwe Rösler's ankle injury has again flared up and City have booked him into hospital for further test's and scans. He'll most probably miss the QPR game.
• Niall Quinn's neck injury proved to be less serious than initially thought, after all how else can you explain his brace of goals for Eire against Leichtenstein?
• Latest speculation...
  Horton has denied a 3M bid for Bolton's Jason McAteer. He has however confirmed himself and Bruce Rioch have been holding discussion, although he claims these are just to find out how SB is playing.

If you wonder who SB is, I'll enlighten you: School Boy aka Alan Kernaghan nicknamed thus because of the number of school boy type errors he's made.

NEWS

The latest team news for the QPR game:

• Curle's back after his hamstring injury and replaces Andy Hill.
• Dibble stays in goal as TC hasn't recovered from his shoulder injury. However TC will be named as sub goalie as Margetson is ruled out with a back muscle strain.
• Rösler is still ruled out :-(

So basically the same team from the Forest game with the addition of Curle at the back.

PS I'm still convinced that Collymore equalised Quinn's second!